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CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS
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JimDean
Posted 1/3/2019 8:00 AM (#9224)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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This thread is now closed, since CVW has moved long past the early-beta VolEval stage.

I'm retaining the posts simply as an historical archive of the early form of CVW, along with the info about the various SBAS tests that were done. The spreadsheets changed a lot ... they'll be used in the future for other projects, so the info about them is valuable also.

Even though this is a very old thread, questions or comments about it are welcome in the active-DISCUSSION thread ... as long as a URL-LINK is INCLUDED in the discussion-post, pointing to the specific Post in this Thread that is being mentioned. Click here for steps to create that URL link.
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JimDean
Posted 1/3/2019 8:55 AM (#9176 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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Here are the files for the first VOLeval beta release (Keys files are sent to you individually).

With OT off, copy the TradeTight-Keys.txt file into OT18's SDK\TT_Support-Files folder, then extract the VOLeval DLL from the zip into the SDK root folder, and UNBLOCK it (via right-click). If you don't already have it installed, copy the aJDctBasicBlack.otd file from the Zip into the OT18\ChartTemplates folder. If you haven't already, you'll need to update your OT2018 to pre-release 3A.

Start OT, open the Basic Black template, SaveAs aFLctVOLeval (or whatever name you want), then right click, Add Indicators, and select VOLeval from the "V" listing category. Voila! Your test template is set.

HERE'S WHAT I NEED YOU TO TEST: I modified this slightly after A2 was released

1. Always start with the "defaults" input pattern ... open the panel via double-click on the plotted indicator, and click on "Restore Defaults" (bottom left) to quickly get back to this point. You'll need at least 600 bars loaded, to provide for 126 output plotted bars and the max possible number of warmup bars.

2. Not much point in detail-testing the Return values, since the return-options will most likely be radically rearranged (per ToDo). I suggest that you create one test FL column, using Default settings, that has the last three inputs "0,10,-1". The upcoming revisions will use entirely different return-inputs to extract digits, etc, so there's no need to test or memorize the current approach. you can skip this step entirely

3. Lock in SpikeCap = 2, LastBar=0, BarsToCalc=126, MixWtd input=3, and MAvgSlope input=2 no, use MAvgSlope=3 for version A2. The calc's and impacts of those features are already fully tested and their impacts are predictable and not terribly significant. Don't change any of these values during the testing described below.

4. For now, leave the CumSlidWndo input=2. Later we will test it but since it has such a large and unpredictable impact, we will study the other things first. Step 8 is important

5. Using the Defaults settings, flip through a bunch of Nas-100 daily-bar symbols, and find a few (no more than 5) that have a fair sampling of tradeable Long, tradeable Short, and untradeable sections within the most recent 6 months (ie during the BarsToCalc=126 window). Each of you has chosen three ... all different from the others

6. General test process:
a. Select a CumMeth(VolObOg) input (4, then 6, then 2, then 8) and hold it constant for steps b-f
b. Select a MApdsFMS input (2, then 1, then 3) and hold it constant for steps c-f
c. Select a FuzzyEquiv input (2, then 3, then 4, then 1, then 0) and hold it constant for steps d-f
d. Select a TrdZonBgn input (6, then 7, then 5) and hold it constant for step e-f
e. Vary the TrdZonEnd input (2, then 1, then 3) and hold it constant for step f
f. Check out your selected Symbols, then and RECORD OBSERVATIONS for that a-f combo on the SS

7. From your observations in 6.a-e, write out a list of (at least) ten different input-patterns that you feel are *the* most useful. That is, each pattern will specify five numbers ... one from each of the a-e choices. Be sure to send that list to me. If you provide more than ten, great (using a spreadsheet to keep track during tests might be smart) ... but please try to "sort" the list (somehow) if >10 choices. Big change here ... the SS provides auto totals for the scores, and it can be sorted on that column ... after sorting you'll likely see an obvious group of high scores ... maybe 50 or 100 who knows (based on your avail time). Use that group, not just ten, and not seat of pants

8. Last step: for each of the top-ten input-pattern selections (lock in one at a time), vary the CumSlidWndo input (1, 2, 3, 4), checking your selected Symbols for each, and "grade" the results ... that is, whatever, metrics or holistic gut feel you used to determine the ten-best in step 7, use that same means to decide for each pattern which are the *two best and two worst* CumSlidWndo selections (not counting 0).
Note: this step is IMPORTANT, but requires the others to be completed first to make its results meaningful. The CumSlidWndo input has a big impact, but its current 1,2,3,4 settings are somewhat arbitrary ... I will use your feedback to change the window-sizes related to 1,2,3,4 inputs, to home in on the "ideal".Mark, you might want to create another SS just for this ... or an extra tab on that one which auto-extracts the highest-scoring patterns from the main sheet, and presents them for re-voting with the SlidWndo variants, re Lag Chop Dirn

GOAL: to figure out which settings are most/least useful, and to eliminate or tune the inputs in line with that. If I can kill off some option (such as one of the CumMeth's), due to all of you independently reporting negatively about it, that's great!

Please do NOT share your testing conclusions with the other guys, for now. I'd rather have your observations uncompromised by others' viewpoints. I'll share the results with all of you ... and if questions occur during testing, I'll pass on the Q & answer to everyone.

Please FIRST answer the ToDo email, THEN start the testing (so I can work on ToDo's while you're testing). Please plan to complete all the steps within a week ... ie by the end of Wednesday Jan 9th, at the latest. Earlier feedback will be even more helpful.

Note that this testing is what the $100 discount is for ... if you don't want to do the testing, then just send me an additional $100 for list price, and we'll be square (see above re Flex, etc later on). Alternatively, if you decide you don't want this tool at all, let me know and I'll either refund your money or keep it "on account" for other later work (up to you, tho of course I'd prefer the latter ;~). In order to allow you this flexibility, I'm setting the initial license (in the Keys file) to expire at the end of January ... if after that time you still want to keep it functional, I'll just email you a new Keys file that is for the lifetime use.

Thanks again!

LATER: extensive discussion and info about this was done on the DISCUSSION thread. Go there to get test spreadsheets and to review the scoring categories (Lag, Chop, Dirn)

Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution

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JimDean
Posted 1/3/2019 9:14 AM (#9177 - in reply to #9176)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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Here are THIRTY symbols that I've pre-vetted ... please select your test Symbols from the ones in this list. My gut-selection criteria was that the symbol appeared to be roughly swing or trend-tradeable during the past 6 months, and that the collection represents a big variety of patterns.

AAPL
ADP
ALXN
ATVI
CTAS
CTRP
DISCA
DLTR
EXPE
HAS
HOLX
HSIC
LILAK
MAR
MAT
MNST
MU
NCLH
NFLX
NVDA
PAYX
PCAR
QCOM
ROST
TSCO
ULTA
VIAB
VRTX
WBA
WDC

Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution

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JimDean
Posted 1/3/2019 9:40 AM (#9179 - in reply to #9177)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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Here are SIX symbols selected from the 30 prior ones ... the "pick of the litter". If you don't want to select your own from the 30, then these would be what I recommend.

Note: later this year, I'll be offering a "TradeTrak" tool and some other Scans that will greatly simplify and ideally select Symbols to use in Scans or Filters, which are particularly amenable to trading with a particular entry/exit strategy. The symbols below are ones that those tools would be likely to select automatically ...

AAPL
ATVI
HAS
MAT
PAYX
QCOM

... and of those, these are the "top 3" in my opinion ... good for testing and L+S swing/trend trading ...

HAS
PAYX
QCOM

Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution

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JimDean
Posted 1/3/2019 2:45 PM (#9189 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW Archived Devel Discussion



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Hi, All:

During the demo session, I tried to quickly check/confirm that the return-output focus-list t,p,k "counts" were correct, when compared to an identically-configured plot. I had the return-param BarsToCalc set =10, to minimize calc time, but to allow for up to 9 bars to have the same state for counting (the output counts max at 9 bars). The plot BarsToCalc was defaulted to 126 ... which should provide the same (visual state) bar count.

I found what seemed to be an error ... the counts for bars with a given Slope-Vote (-3 to +3) did not match what the Plot seemed to be saying when set to +2 for Slope colors. I've been laboriously testing that ... for Slope, Stack and TrdZon return-counts vs plot-counts.

I was able to repeat the error ... and beat on it with lots of debug outputs. But I couldn't seem to figure it out.

Then the head-slap moment occurred. It turned out that I had *one* of the input param's for the FL column different (fast MA speed) than that param for the plot (med MA speed). After a loud Argh, I made them identical, and repeated my tests.

It turns out that all is well ... there was no bug. Apparently my rapid jumping around during the Skype session created a disparity of the inputs.

Just so you know ... the math in your DLL is correct.

Post moved by on 6/27/2019 10:57 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > CVW Archived Devel Discussion

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JimDean
Posted 1/3/2019 3:37 PM (#9190 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW Archived Devel Discussion



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OK I've been doing some testing on my "3 favorite" symbols, over the 6-mo timeframe. I've got some preliminary conclusions regarding the value of the PVT method (7&8), which earlier I had thought possibly to kill off ... PVT used to be inputs 3&4 (natural progression from OBV, since neither use intra-candle info).

I've now concluded that PVT is a viable candidate, so I am moving it back to the 3&4 inputs as it was earlier. This will differ from your DLL, but only in the sequence not in the results.

I've been also testing PVT and III methods with four different Sliding Window settings (1-4 = Wide to Tight). The Windows seem to have a significant impact on the results, so I consider this an important tuning opportunity ... especially since my starting point of 110,84,60,37 bars (the help has this backwards) was pretty arbitrary.

From my limited 3-symbol, two method tests (all other inputs default), it seems pretty decisive that "4" (the tightest 37-bar window) is consistently worse than the three wider windows.

Also, it appears that "1" (the widest 110-bar window) is not as good as 2 or 3, but it's not as bad as 4.

These, by the way, are the kinds of "conclusion summaries" that I hope to hear from y'all, regarding all the different inputs, using the test procedure I outlined.

SO ... for my in-progress revision, I'm going to modify the assignments of the Cum Window bars to home in on the apparent sweet spot. The new Wyd2Tyt bars for 1-4 will therefore be 110, 90, 70, 50.

Y'all don't need to change your testing ... except maybe prioritize testing sequence for the CumWndoWyd2Tyt using settings of 2, 3, 1, 4.

Post moved by on 6/27/2019 10:59 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > CVW Archived Devel Discussion

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JimDean
Posted 1/4/2019 11:29 AM (#9196 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW Archived Devel Discussion



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Here are specific characteristics that I'm suggesting you "score" in the ten columns. If we all use the same approach, it will be MUCH easier to consolidate the results. Scoring: 1=poor, 5=great.

"Characteristics" to evaluate ...

Lag (ie delays in starting &/or ending the TradeZone)

Chop (ie whether a "visual price-trend run" has a continuous TZ, vs one that is on-off-on-off)

Dir'n (ie incorrect when TZ's show up in "flat" choppy-price areas or in the wrong bull/bear direction)

Mark, if you feel up to it ... maybe you could tweak the XLS to show three sets of three columns, with these labels, for each of three Symbols ... and one Total Score column.

Thanks for helping to get this process organized ... it will really add value!

Post moved by on 6/27/2019 10:59 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > CVW Archived Devel Discussion

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JimDean
Posted 1/4/2019 4:12 PM (#9199 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW Archived Devel Discussion



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OK ... I've made a huge amount of progress today. I got the new Plot panel in very quickly, and it's just as nifty as I'd hoped. I also got *most* of the Help panels updated ... there are now SEVEN of them. Panels 5 & 6 provide fully revised descriptions of the new -1 to -33 Return options.

There were a bunch of earlier fixes as well, described in prior posts.

My plan was to get this recompiled and out to you by 6pm ... and I didn't expect to have all the new features working. However, I am SOOOO CLOSE right now (4p), that I'm going to finish up the important stuff ... I need to revise the Return output code to match the new patterns described in the Help. You won't be using this for the group-testing process, but after that I think you'll want to play with it.

Therefore, the new DLL will be out to you maybe by 8-9 PM, with everything but the (possible) additions of two Guru sliders, and spawning of Powr vs Flex vs Edge versions.

Here are snapshots that will likely be helpful to you ... plus a Zip file with all of them. You should read them ;~)

NOTE: I have updated all the attachments (Zip and Snaps) in this post, after the final release in the wee hours. So, the panels displayed here are the "official A2 version". The DLL is available from the attachment at this link: http://tradetight.org/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1431#M9203


(VOLeval A2 Combo Plot.png)



(VOLeval A2 Details Plot.png)



(VOLeval A2 Parameters.png)



(VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -1.png)



(VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -2.png)



(VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -3.png)



(VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -4.png)



(VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -5.png)



(VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -6.png)



(VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -7.png)



(VOLeval A2 Returns 1-33 (Landscape).png)




Post moved by on 6/27/2019 11:00 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > CVW Archived Devel Discussion


Attachments
Attachments VOLeval A2 Params, Help & Charts.zip (5032KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 Combo Plot.png (25KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 Details Plot.png (24KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 Parameters.png (255KB - 1 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -1.png (193KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -2.png (249KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -3.png (332KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -4.png (302KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -5.png (237KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -6.png (252KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 HelpPanel -7.png (340KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 Returns 1-33 (Landscape).png (310KB - 0 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 1/5/2019 3:55 AM (#9203 - in reply to #9179)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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Hi, beta guys!

Hmm ... lessee now ... it's 3:15am. BUT - everything is done that I planned, including some extra polish of the Help Panels. The new DLL is compiled, and as far as I know, everything works as intended. The only "note" about upcoming changes is a comment at the bottom of Help Panel #1 saying that more info will appear when the Gurus are implemented. And on that front ... Salim and Lou have both told me that they see a strong positive benefit, for either their use or for marketing (or both), in creating at least two and maybe three "siblings" of VOLeval, when the Gurus are added ... VOLpowr, VOLflex, VOLedge ... or VOLxprt, VOLcore. I'll be working on that while y'all are testing. Please remember that the deadline is next Wed ... but hopefully you'll be done by Monday :~)

Your existing license Keys file remains the same for this release.

All you need to do is to:
0. if you created any chart templates or FL columns etc using the A1 version, open OT, delete them, and close OT
1. download the *two* Zip files from this post,
2. extract the "A2" DLL from the "A2 DLL (only)" zip, into the SDK folder,
3. UNBLOCK it,
4. delete the earlier "A1" version from the SDK (absolutely required!)
5. start OT18pr3A, and add the VOLeval to the Basic Black template for your testing
6. set your data periods to 600 and you'll have more than enough bars regardless of the param settings.

ALSO, I attached *another* Zip, with fully-updated snapshots ... and I created a handy 7-page PDF with all the snaps on it. CAUTION: the first 5 pages are readily printable, and I suggest you do that. The 6th and 7th pages are big black & colored charts ... most printers don't like using that much black ink on a page so I suggest you just look at those on the monitor.

OK ... that's it ... the full package including documentation. :D


Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution


Attachments
Attachments VOLeval A2 Params, Help & Charts.zip (5032KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments VOLeval A2 DLL (only).zip (38KB - 2 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 1/5/2019 10:19 AM (#9205 - in reply to #9203)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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OK apparently there are download problems. I've deleted the attachment from the prior post, and I'm attempting to attach two other tries to this post.

The "VOLeval A2.zip" simply contains the normal DLL file. Please try to download it.

The "VOLeval A2 as DOC.zip" contains the DLL file that has been renamed by replacing the .DLL extension at its end with .DOC ... after downloading, extract the file then rename and confirm.

I also tried sending each of these in separate emails to all of the addresses that I have for y'all. I already got reject notices for all three, from the gmail accounts.



Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution


Attachments
Attachments VOLeval A2.zip (38KB - 7 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 1/5/2019 10:56 AM (#9208 - in reply to #9205)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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OK.

I was able to download the zipped normal-DLL file, and after UNBLOCKing it, OT accepted it and it plots. NOTE: when I downloaded it (into chrome), good ole' Google gave me a warning message at the bottom of the browser window that the contents might be dangerous ... there was a DISCARD button next to the file in the bottom bar, AND an up-caret ... clicking the up-caret and then selecting "Keep" got rid of the message, and the download completed, and the resulting extracted and unblocked DLL *did* work with OT. (whew ... I hate google)

I was able to download the renamed file, and after renaming it and UNBLOCKing it, OT accepted it and it plots.

I was able to download the zipped renamed file, and after renaming it and UNBLOCKing it, OT accepted it and it plots.


When all is said and done, the UNBLOCKED file should have this name:
TTind_VOLeval.A2.O18pr3A.nsl.dll
... pay attention to where the four periods are ...


So ... the newly generated post just before this does have (three) viable attachments.

MY GUESS IS that the initial problem was caused due to the very very first zip (in the wee hours) actually having ANOTHER zip inside of it, which had the snapshots. So, I've tried one final time to attach the info to the original posting ... this time, the DLL (not renamed) is zipped separately in one attachment, and a second attachment has a zip of all the snaps and pdf. ... That worked, btw ... but with the warning + keep procedure, per the first paragraph.


Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution

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JimDean
Posted 1/5/2019 11:35 AM (#9213 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW Archived Devel Discussion



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Hi, Mark ... I suppose that I could horse around for an hour and sift through things to provide illustrations ... that would effectively calibrate your eyeball and mind to be similar to mine. That *might* be wise ... or maybe not.

One of the benefits of having three helpers with this is that we apply four different minds and viewpoints to this "holistic" evaluation. I don't want y'all to use a microscope for each chart ... I want a ten-second (max) look-see, and three scores regarding whether you think the VOLeval TradeZones shown for that chart with those param settings are "generally helpful for trading" ... by scoring it re Lag, Chop and Direction.

I think that all of you likely know what those three words mean ... I described it to each of you on the phone individually, and I posted a short definition.

If I go any further than that, then I'm guessing you'll try to find out which charts "match" the ones I post as examples ... and you might be "observing" something on my samples ... unconsciously ... that I did not intend. I've found in the past that charts sometimes confuse the issue ... since everyone "sees" something somewhat different.

Having said all that ... here are two charts. I did not work hard at all to find them. Bot are QCOM ... the first uses default settings, and the second has all the "play with these" param-sliders all the way to the right (maxed out) ... except for the CumMethod=4 which needs to be the same for apples to apples.

I think it should be hugely obvious which is "better" that the other one ...



(Sample Using Defaults - QCOM.png)



(Sample Using RS-pinned - QCOM.png)




Post moved by on 6/27/2019 11:02 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > CVW Archived Devel Discussion


Attachments
Attachments Sample Using Defaults - QCOM.png (173KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments Sample Using RS-pinned - QCOM.png (175KB - 0 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 1/5/2019 11:56 AM (#9215 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW Archived Devel Discussion



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Here's a little more info to work from ... you need to wander around and play with variations of params a bit on your selected symbols, to get a feel for the range of how things can change. That will give you some *persepective* ... which will be useful if you stick to the three symbols you've chosen:

Salim's symbols ... ATVI, QCOM, and MAT
Mark's symbols ... SPY, PAYX, and HAS
Lou's symbols ... PCAR DLTR TSCO

RE: Lags
All indicators that use MA's and LRS's have lag. The questions here are ...
1. is the start of the TZ so late in a run, that it likely would not overlap earlier signals, or (worse) that it allows trades to start only near the tail end of the run, when it's about to reverse? If so, that's BAD.
2. if the start was "okay", but the endpoint of the TZ drags out way waaay past the point where the run exhausted and possibly even reversed, then that might allow a new trade to start too late. If so, that's BAD.
... there's almost always more Lag with longer MA and LRS speeds, and using pure-SMA's (and max fuzz)

RE: Chop
The more reactive (less laggy) that you make an indicator, the more it tends to fragment ...
1. since this is not a "trading strategy", it's not necessarily bad if the TZ starts at a good place, early in a run, but then turns off before the price move has fully completed. But if a whole lot of little TZ's appear throughout the course of the run, even late in the run, it's hard to distinguish which is best, and that's BAD.
2. if a "choppy" TZ input-pattern gives decent early flags for runs (as per #1), you also have to consider that maaybe your normal entry-signal-generating System won't happen to fire a signal precisely within the small choppy TZ points ... so you'd miss out on the trade, and that's BAD. (unless you're using the TZ *as* the entry signal).
... there's almost always more Chop with shorter MA and LRS speeds, and using pure-WMA's (and no fuzz)

RE: Direction
Sometimes the market gets jittery and volume spikes or price pop/drop appears, without going anywhere ...
1. when the input param settings seem to allow bullish TZ's to show up during times when Price seems to be pretty consistently bearish (or untrade-ably flat), or bearish TZ's when price is bullish or flat, that's BAD.
2. if those #1 kind of bad TZ's appear and are pretty "wide", rather than just being a bar or three "blip", then it's more likely that your entry system might fire (by mistake, too) ... and that's REALLY BAD.
... my guess: correct Direction is most likely a function of the selection for CumMethod and SlidingWindow


OKAY ... I hope that helps!


Post moved by on 6/27/2019 11:04 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > CVW Archived Devel Discussion

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JimDean
Posted 1/5/2019 5:58 PM (#9225 - in reply to #9224)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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FIRST EXAMPLE:

Salim sent me this case ... he wondered why the early-mid Sep price rise did not cause the bearish (red horiz line) TZ to end. He also noticed that the two histos immediately below that set of bars seemed "blank".

I responded that the line was "deep/dim" red, implying very few supportive bearish votes ... and that there were inadequate opposite-direction votes to kill the TZ. The "blank" histo's actually are correct ... all six curves are on the zero-line, which of course means that the histo-bar votes related to them are zero. The only potential non-zero vote might come from the middle Vmult line, which has a bit of green.

However, even that Vmult green "doesn't count" unless the CumV histo bar (see Detail screen) is above the FastMA enough (ie vs the Fuzzy gap) to confirm it as a "vote" (this is a nuance that's sort of cool, but not emphasized in the Help explanations).

HOWEVER ... if we reduce the Fuzzy input from its extreme value of 4, back to the default of 2 (the middle chart), then it allows one +1 bullish vote to appear as the price uptrend starts, from the Slope, and the other +1 vote that Ends the TZ (since the End votes input is 2) comes from the green Vmult where the histo CumV was sufficiently above its FastMA.

Re potential need for modification: this is working as it is supposed to. However, it's not clear from the Vmult middle line as to whether the CumV histo (on the Detail chart) is above, ~equal, or below the FastMA. That would have assisted with interpreting this situation. SO ... I am considering adding one more horizontal line, sort of like the middle one, along the very bottom. Its colors would indicate how the CumV histo value relates to the FastMA, considering the fuzzy setting.

Thanks for asking about this, Salim!

Later ... the Fix is In!

I decided to implement the mod described above, to visually clarify the two components that make up the +1/0/-1 BarVote (which, with Slope and Stack, allows for the +7 > -7 votes discussed in Help).
In doing so, I noticed that I'd failed to include "fuzzy" logic in the rule requiring the CumV histo to be adequately distant from the FastMA (above/below = bullish/bearish). So, I fixed that ... it impacts a few of the TZ results, but not many ... makes them smarter (ie sometimes it makes a current +1/-1 vote go away).

It looks good, and helps interpretation, to put the two lines together in the middle. The top one represents the Vmult magnitude (sort of like a slope, but not really). The bot one represents the Histo-FastMA spacing (just like stacking of MA's). So, the parallelism with the slope-histos above and stack-histos below makes it easy to remember which middle line is which.

Interpretation is simple ... if both lines are green or both are red on the same bar (any degree of brightness), then a +1 or -1 vote is created ... else the BarVote is zero. I'll need to update Help for this change. Note: keep on testing ... this will not have an significant influence on the conclusions you are drawing.

The final chart in the snapshot below shows this new logic and output in action ... I hope y'all like it!


(TRAINING- how fuzzy kills votes.png)



Attachments
Attachments TRAINING- how fuzzy kills votes.png (196KB - 0 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 1/5/2019 7:47 PM (#9226 - in reply to #9225)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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If you haven't seen the prior post re the (minor) BarVote calc change, and the (nice) improvement to the Plot=1 panel, be sure to check it out! This post relates to how that affects the Return values.

Prior to this, there were 33 Return options. However, all we were "tracking" for the BarVote was the fuzzy-increments of the CumVmult ... which got zeroed out if the CumV histo was even a skosh below or above the FastMA in the opposite directiton of the CumVmult.

Now, however, the Histo vs FastMA "stack" is being evaluated like all the other stacks ... vs a fuzzy-increment. And its magnitude is being plotted as the new (bottom) horizontal line of the middle pair. So ... in line with all the other things, we need to have a parallel Return-value to report the same info that the chart does with its pretty colors.

To do this, I'm making the final digit of the Return= -1 output (the BarVote) be a magnitude that combines the CumVmult magnitude with the HstoVsFast magnitude, in a reasonable way. It's identifier (in Help) is now "B" instead of "S", and it has an output range of 1-9 (where 5= no vote, 1-4= bearish, and 6-9= bullish ... like other digits).

Unfortunately, that Return= -1 output value has maxed out the number of digits it can report (max=7) ... and to be consistent with the stack and slope votes, we really should track and report the *duration* of a given BarVote state ... so, to do that, AND to report the magnitudes and durations of the two components CumVmult and HstoVsFast, I need to ADD MORE return options ... seven more ... (and I remove one in the process since -31=PrcMult is now more sophisticated, in fuzzy-increments) ... bringing the new total to a nice round serendipitous 40 Return options.

The list will be:

-31 = Bb.MmSs ... where B= barV magnitude, M= multiplier, S= stacking ... all in fuzzy increments 1-9; b, m, s are durations of those states, much like t,p,k,a,b,c,x,y,s are for the other existing breakout components.

-32 to -36 are individual-digits b, M, m, S, s (you can get individual B already from option = -8)

-37 = Mm
-38 = Ss
... you can get Bb simply by using INT(result for -31)

-39 = Cumulative V actual value (used to be -32)

-40 = Capped V actual value (used to be -33)

==============

I've just about gotten all the code in to do that. Obviously I also need to update Help for both the new Plotting and the new Return stuff ... and for the nuance to how the Voting is done.

OK ... that brings you up to date.
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JimDean
Posted 1/7/2019 5:24 PM (#9233 - in reply to #9226)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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The version A3 charts below represent what I expect is the final format for the four plot choices.

Plot#1 (first chart) is relatively new ... it was in A2, but in A3 the middle "BarVote" line is split into top and bottom strips, showing the two components (price ratio multiple on top, and histo vs fastMA factor on bottom). Some small mod's were made to those components of the BarVote calcs, to bring them up to snuff re fuzzy calcs ... but it has a nearly negligible impact on the resulting TradeZones.

Plot#3 (second chart) - SLOPE VOTES - looks similar to A2's version, but the histo coloring is simpler (three shades not six), and denotes something different. The colors of each MA represent that MA's slope ... up, down, or fuzzy-flat. The colors of the CumV histograms represent the *net* of the Slope votes towards the TradeZone state ... green/blue/red = bullish TZ, neutral/inactive TZ, bearish TZ.

Plot#4 (third chart) - STACK VOTES - is also similar to A2's version, but again, the histo coloring is simplified and assigned differently.The colors of each MA represent one of the stacking votes ... fastMA > FvS stacking, medMA > FvM stacking, and slowMA > MvS stacking ... above, fuzzy-equal, or below. The colors of the CumV histograms represent the *net* of the Stack votes towards the TradeZone state ... green/blue/red = bullish TZ (+1 to +3), neutral/inactive TZ, bearish TZ (-1 to -3).

Plot#2 (fourth chart) - BAR VOTES - has been totally rebuilt for version A3. It uses five "layers" of histograms to convey six different items of information. It looks a little busy at first, but the colors make a lot of sense once you spend a couple of minutes studying it. Here's the story ...

1. the widest, dimmest background histo's show the Cumulative Volume magnitude, and their color represents the net BarVote value of green=+1=bullish TZ, blue=0= fuzzy-neutral, red=-1=bearish TZ.

2. on top of that, and *usually* not visible since it's covered up, is a skinny, med-blue histo spike (July 26 and Nov 16 are obvious cases) ... this is the "raw volume" value, before any capping logic is applied. When the RawV is under the cap-limit, these lines are hidden by the next "layer" ...

3. on top of those two layers, med-width, light-blue histos (always positive, above zero line) indicate the Capped Volume value ... which usually covers up the RawV unless it has a large spike. These histo's are skinnier than the dark CumV histos, so even on a bar where CapV is taller than CumV, you can see the color and height of CumV by looking at the outside edges.

4. on top of those three layers, a med-width red or green histo (same width as CapV histos) reports (like a thermometer) what portion of the CapV shares was the positive (lime) or negative (pink) change to that bar's CumV value. These are always plotted as positive values, so it's easy to see how much of the light-blue CapV histo was utilized. The percentage varies widely depending on the Cum Calc Method selected. For OBV, since the multiplier is always +1 or -1, the lime/pink histo's always completely obscure the light-blue CapV histo behind them, since they are always 100% of the shares.

5. all of the Cum Calc Methods are optionally affected (pretty significantly) by a Sliding Window of time ... that is, for any bar, the Sliding Window input dictates the number of prior bars that impact the net CumV value. This means that not only is a new percent-of-CapV added/subtracted to CumV at the RHS of the window ... but also a prior pct-CapV (from the LHS of the window) is backed out of the RHS CumV value. Thus the change in CumV at the RHS is the net of one new bar being included, and one old bar being removed. The #4 layer reports the sign and magnitude of the new-bar inclusion ... and this #5 layer, using the same math and colors, reports the sign and magnitude of the old-bar deletion, as a histogram plotted *below* the zero line.

Collectively, plots #2, #3, #4 provide visual detail/elucidation of the various components that are all summarized on plot #1. Note also that every useful piece of information that you can derive from these plots visually, is echoed by one or more of the 40 Return-value options.

Notes:
Although the list of param's shows the Cum Method to be #8, I've since switched the param's back to the same order as the A2 version ... so A3 will show these charts, using VPT calcs, as the default #4 option.
Also ... the input-options 1-2 OBV calcs normally create huge CumV values (vs CapV), such that plot#2 would have tiny little light blue CapV bumps on the zero line ... so, I divide all OBV CumV's by ten (also for Return).
Similarly ... the input-options 3-4 VPT calcs normally create tiny CumV values (vs CapV0, such that plot#2 would have background dark-red/blu/grn histos that are so short you couldn't see them behind the tall CapV values ... so, I divide all the VPT CumV's by ten (also for Return) - fourth chart below shows how well that works.
The other CumV methods 5-8 don't have any x10 or /10 adjustments.


(QCOM plot-1, defaults (VOLeval A3); TradeZone focus.png)



(QCOM plot-3, defaults (VOLeval A3); SlopeVote focus.png)



(QCOM plot-4, defaults (VOLeval A3); StackVote focus.png)



(QCOM plot-2, defaults (VOLeval A3); BarVote focus.png)



Attachments
Attachments QCOM plot-1, defaults (VOLeval A3); TradeZone focus.png (22KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments QCOM plot-3, defaults (VOLeval A3); SlopeVote focus.png (21KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments QCOM plot-4, defaults (VOLeval A3); StackVote focus.png (21KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments QCOM plot-2, defaults (VOLeval A3); BarVote focus.png (16KB - 0 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 1/17/2019 12:29 AM (#9241 - in reply to #9233)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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Here is what I hope is the final set of revisions to the plot output formats. There have been a considerable number of changes, many thanks to Salim for his ideas and feedback. At this time, I'm uncertain as to which of these will be available in the "Core" version (leaning to just #1) ... all three will be avail in "Xprt". All the info on the available charts is echoed via the 40 Return-option outputs, either via several-items-in-one form, or in individual form ... if the Core version only has the first plot, then it will offer only 10-12 Return options.

TERMINOLOGY:
I'm trying to come up with a "sexier" name than "Volume Evaluation" ... needs a 3-letter abbreviation for the DLL name (like MTV). I'm thinking of "CVW" = "Cumulative Volume Wave". I'd refer to the "TradeZone" as the CVwave ... ie alluding to a "flow" of shares. Thus: CVWxprt & CVWcore. What do you think?

Plot #1 Top Band ... and its parallel return values (pane manually squished on purpose)

Band shows CVwave in nine colors that correspond to the (revised) initial "T" digit of Return option -1. Bright, medium and dim green/red show high,med,low #votes during a bullish/bearish wave ... wave must always start with BgnZon #votes of course. (T=9,8,7 bull and 1,2,3 bear). There are three "non-wave" colors ... darkgreen, navy, purple ... darkgreen and purple are "alerts" that a new Wave might soon begin (T=6,5,4). The "mapping" of votes to colors varies a bit, depending on what BgnZon input is.
BULL Colors: . . . Bgn7: 7, 6-4, 3-0; Bgn6: 7-6, 5-3, 2-0; Bgn5: 7-5, 4-3, 2-0
WAVE ReturnT: . . . . . . 9 . . 8 . . 7 . . . . . . 9 . . 8 . . 7 . . . . . . 9 . . 8 . . 7
... Bear Wave similar: 1,2,3 in place of 9,8,7 ... pure neutral is 5
... 6 is a "bull alert" (dark green) and 4 is a "bear alert" (purple)

Plot #1 Triple-Strips ... and parallel return values

Each strip shows the net *vote* for a category ... all vary from 2-8. For the upper and lower strips: 2-4 = 3,2,1 net Bearish Votes (red); 8-6 = 3,2,1 net Bullish Votes (green), and 5= zero net votes (navy) in that category. The upper strip shows SlopeVote, middle shows BarVote, and bottom shows StackVote. The middle BarVote strip has only one +/-1 vote (grn/red) ... so the fuzzy-increment-magnitude behind the vote is used to create alternate tints of the bull/bear colors ... anything green for that strip means +1 vote, and anything red means -1 vote.

Plot #2 is essentially unchanged from the major revision that is described in the prior post ... I tweaked the spacing a bit, and the mapping of colors for the upper CVwave band is as described above. But otherwise, the same. Note that this chart shows the net Slope/Stack Votes with the upper/lower histograms, and the +1/0/-1 Bar Vote is determined from the colors of the two middle strips ... if both are greenish (some tint), that's a Bull = +1 vote; if both reddish, that's a -1 Bear vote; in all other cases, it's a neutral "0" vote.

Plot #3 has been totally revamped ... it replaces all three of the prior 2,3,4 formats described earlier. Its purpose is primarily for training/explanations/understanding of "how" the inner calc's of the routine work ... it shows the "rudiments" of those calc's ... I do *not* expect people to use this for normal trading-decision purposes. The explanation in the prior post for plot #2 (with various layers of histograms) is an accurate starting point for this new plot #3. I've added the three Slope-Vote-colored MA's from the old plot#3 (see that prior explanation) to this chart. The new stacked "dots" provide the same information as the colors of the MA's in the old plot #4, indicating the variants in degree of Stacking, as described previously for the old plot #4. Yes, this can be sort of squished, depending on how the various components' values map to the y-axis ... but simply reducing the number of bars displayed, and either making the pane taller or maximizing the plot window, will always provide sufficient resolution.


(QCOM plot-1, defaults (VOLeval A3); TradeZone focus.png)



(QCOM plot-2, defaults (VOLeval A3); Components focus.png)



(QCOM plot-3, defaults (VOLeval A3); Rudiments focus.png)



Attachments
Attachments QCOM plot-1, defaults (VOLeval A3); TradeZone focus.png (18KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments QCOM plot-2, defaults (VOLeval A3); Components focus.png (23KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments QCOM plot-3, defaults (VOLeval A3); Rudiments focus.png (26KB - 0 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 1/23/2019 8:27 AM (#9247 - in reply to #9208)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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NEW "MOD 9" SPREADSHEET

This morning I found some oversights in the earlier designs and fixed them ... plus made it a bit smarter. I've deleted the old post from this thread. PLEASE USE THE ATTACHED TEMPLATE, not any earlier ones.

The snapshot has notes that tell you how to enter the Symbol Names that you are using (in A1) and explains that rows below 26 are all automatic, so should never be changed.

Before starting work on the sheet, spend some time playing with the variances of the light-green-background rows, so that you get a feel for the "range" of baadness(5) to greatness(1) scoring ... to "calibrate your eyeball".

NOTE re steps #7 & #8 ... send me the spreadsheet when you have completed step 6. I will do the copying and sorting, etc, and decide on which of the 540 test cases are "good enough" to warrant doing the #8 sliding-window testing. Then I will send you back a spreadsheet with just those cases, nicely organized for efficient review. You'll be testing the sliding window input for that situation, in a manner similar to what you just did.

THANKS!


(Extra Instructions for Spreadsheet.png)




Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution


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JimDean
Posted 1/23/2019 4:05 PM (#9251 - in reply to #9247)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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This was NOT the final form of the spreadsheet, so I left the notes but removed the attachement ... version 14 is the final one, provided in a later post. Here is the link to it:
http://tradetight.org/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1433#M9355


MOD-10 has a lot of new tabs, some of which are used for the sorting required by Step 7 (Jim does this). The sorting and copy-values process involves several sub-steps, but the final result is the new population of the Second (Step8Fours) and Third (Step8Threes) tabs ... and those are the ones you will be working on when I send it back to you after doing the sorts etc (which don't take much time but are too complex to reliably give instructions for).

The Step8Fours tab "looks" very much like the Step6Tests tab ... it has five extra rows waaay at the bottom but they are mainly informational. Note that cell A1 should be left as-is (important).

The most obvious difference is that the CumSlidWndoWyd2Thn input-row #9 now has a medium-green background ... that row is the focus of Step8. The values for it are all filled in ... firstly= 2 (the test scoress you've already completed are echoed for those columns).

You'll also note that the unlabelled row 17 has numbers in it that tell you what the "raw" test#'s were from Step 6, for each column in this tab. Those Test#'s are used since (for the Step8Fours tab), all of them had a final net net score of 4 from my sorting process (ie the best ones). This will be a lot less than the original 540 tests ... probably no more than 100 or so.

That list of "great" test#'s REPEATS as you move to the right ... and when it starts over, you'll see the Row 1 test-numbers restart at "-1" ... (neg indicates it's not the "2" set). The very first -1 column (in row 1) you find will also be the first column that NEEDS MORE TESTING.

Every time the cycle repeats and a new -1 appears, you'll also see that the newly-active CumSlidWndoWyd2Thn
input row's value changes (dark green background). The sequence may seem a bit odd, but there's method to the madness ...

After the recap of CumSlidWndoWyd2Thn=2 scores, your new tests will do CumSlidWndoWyd2Thn=4, then =1, then =3, then =0. So, if you have 90 cases that scored "4" from the step6 sorted analysis, then there will be 4*90=360 tests (for each of your three symbols) to complete this VERY IMPORTANT final round.

I did them in this order since your time constraints might not allow you to finish ... but please try really hard to. And please follow the order that I provided (long story as to why).

AFTER Step8Fours tab is done, repeat all of the above for the Step8Threes tab. It's arranged similarly re the new CumSlidWndoWyd2Thn variants ... but the input-patterns it uses are all different from those on the Fours tab ... these are patterns that scored "3" ... still purty darn good. I'm really, really hoping that you can complete this tab too. There will be a different number of test-patterns for Three's, but again, it's unlikely that it's over 100 (unless there were very few Fours).

OK ... that's the best explanation I can give in a post - call if you are confused. Thanks for all your help!
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JimDean
Posted 2/4/2019 4:25 PM (#9296 - in reply to #9251)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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Here is the "BgnEnd Testing" spreadsheet. It works like the others, but with a bunch of stuff stripped out or hidden ... and far fewer variants.

Use the VOLeval A2 DLL, as before.

I've attached a new chart template ... it has two instances of WaveTrader ZigZag loaded onto it ... I trust that all of you have a copy of this very useful plugin. If you don't, and don't want to buy it, I've attached three snapshots for the three Symbols being tested, so you can manually draw the pivot lines if you want to.

The template shows white for "perfect" pivot-based trend trade examples, and yellow for "swing" trade examples. Note that the very bottom has the ZigZag indicator pane that also may help you ID the pivot bars. I highly suggest you use my attached template!

The spreadsheet has 49 columns for the 7*7 variants of begin and end votes. Please do them all.
(type the Bgn/End 1-7 values directly into the inputs, since the sliders don't cover the range)

Set up the indicator: click Restore Defaults, then type 25, 130, 1 for the last 3 inputs (this leaves a gap on the RHS since Pivots can't form all the way to the HRE

Press the 6mo button on your display, and slide the chart to the right so that the calculated window is displayed. Don't change the Pivot entries.

Three "Scores" (1-5, where 1=great and 5=horrible) for each symbol for each column. You'll need to change the BgnVot input for each new column, and the EndVot input once every 7 columns. The score categories are:

Filter: Imagine that you have a totally independent trend or swing trading strategy, and that you are using this only as a FILTER ... that is, you want it to be green during the *likely* times that your strategy will be signalling a "good" bull entry, and red when your strat fires a "good" bear entry, and navy (or opp color of a flakey entry direction signal) during times when any bull/bear entry your strat fires should be *blocked*. Your strategy will NOT be "perfect" like the pivot-lines show ... it will most likely enter *later*, and exit differently (early or late) ... the pivot lines are there just to help you have a starting point for your eval. Score 1 if all the green/blue/red zones seem to be allowing the good stuff and blocking the bad stuff.

Entry: Now, imagine that this IS your Entry System (some other exit method ... presume the pivot lines are exits if you want), and that there are no other entries or filters in the strategy. The first bright lime bar in a wave (after navy or red-wave) is a long entry, and the first bright pink bar in a wave (after navy or green-wave) is a short entry. Maaaybe ... if the green/red wave is really long and if there are intermediate *dark* (not med) bars, then the first following bright lime/pink bar *could* be treated as a secondary entry or add, but focus mainly on the very start of the wave as described earlier. Score 1 if the Entries almost all look potentially profitable (presuming perfect exits from the pivot lines, for grins). Score 5 if most of them are in the wrong direction vs the pivot lines, &/or at the very very end of the pivot leg that is in their direction (ie way too late to profit from).

Exit: Now, imagine that this IS your Exit System (but the entries are totally separate ... presume entries occur at the pivots or thereabouts). Look for green waves within those up-leg pivots, and see if the first navy bar (or pink bar) at the end of the green wave offers a pretty decent exit ... it will NOT be perfect like the pivots which are based on crystal ball math. Same for red waves ending in navy (or lime) exits. Score 1 if the Exits almost all look potentially profitable, and Score 5 if most of them are way to late or way too early.

I thought about adding a fourth category for trade as a whole but I think that would be a lot harder to visually eval quickly ... and I can likely derive it from data mining, looking for cases where filter, entry and exit are all pretty good.

Please try *hard* to get this done by midnight tomorrow (ie Tuesday night). I suggest that you do all 49 columns for one symbol, then go back and do the next and the next.

Thanks!

(PAYX Pivot snap.png)



(AAPL Pivot snap.png)



(QCOM Pivot snap.png)




Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution


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Attachments aJDctVolEval.otd (288KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments PAYX Pivot snap.png (33KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments AAPL Pivot snap.png (33KB - 0 downloads)
Attachments QCOM Pivot snap.png (35KB - 0 downloads)
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JimDean
Posted 2/4/2019 9:35 PM (#9297 - in reply to #9296)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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Hi, guys

Sorry ... apparently when I fixed the labels on the SS, I didn't save it properly.
Lag => Filter
Chop => Entry
Dir => Exit

I corrected it, and the name (3 votes per, not 4) and attached it to the post just before this.

This post has a snap of how it's supposed to work.

Salim asked about the Bgn and End sliders ... no, they don't go 1-7 but you can always *type in* values 1-7 in each input. I double-checked the A2 code to make sure it works properly.

Thanks again for helping!

(49 test SS snap.png)




Post moved by on 6/27/2019 8:39 AM from Custom TradeTight Routines > Tools In Team Development > Cumulative Volume Indicator Distribution


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JimDean
Posted 2/18/2019 2:16 PM (#9355 - in reply to #9297)
Subject: CVW VolEval Early Beta & SBAS



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MOD 14 "Final" VERSION ... WITH VIDEO LINKS

I removed all the earlier versions of the spreadsheet. It's expanded a lot, and I polished it to death, not only to make it pretty and to milk all the possible use from it, but also to make it as generic as possible, for use with other testing (different param's, symbols, tests) ... but using the same methodology.

I'm attaching the the improved empty "templates" ... version "MOD 14", for future use & reference ... with signficantly improved label control, flexible dynamic sums from separate scoring, based on which scoring types should be totalled vs maintained separately. This need for separation - such as keeping Filter scoring separate from totals related to Entry and Exit scores - also called for four more tabs in the "net" sheet, to recap each top-thirds independently. In future, it's unlikely that the "Step6&8" version will be needed, since it layered the "fours and threes" tests on the initial "sixes" tests, requiring many extra tabs. For future studies, ideally simple variants of the "Step6 BE" template will be used. (replace older templates)

VIDEO NOTES:
1. the video was from a demo of Mod 13 ... so it will be missing some things in the paragraph above ... notably the way that the Step6 BE Filters scores should be sorted and binned separately
2. the audio is poor ... done at a starbucks while skype was running ... you'll need to turn the volume UP (as the session progresses), and maybe wear headphones ... sorry!)

Here is a link to the video-training for the "BE" (49-column simple) spreadsheet (Mod13):
https://vimeo.com/317090050/48981ccd66

Here is a link to the video-training for the "68" (540-column 2-phase) spreadsheet (Mod13):
https://vimeo.com/317087504/0d42405031

Wise to download these for future use ... about five full days of development and tweaking time here)

Attachments
Attachments Mod14 SBAS Step6 BE - template.xlsx (746KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments Mod14 SBAS Net6 BE - template.xlsx (366KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments Mod14 SBAS Step6&8 - template.xlsx (1453KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments Mod14 SBAS Net6&8 - template.xlsx (383KB - 2 downloads)
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